Falagard Visual Skin / Scheme Editor

[CrazyEddie]

Ok. It seems today is the day of 'putting ideas out there'

It's widely accepted by all that the one 'missing component' that we have here in CEGUI land is a GUI based visual editing tool for Falagard skins (unless you count your text editor ). Creating such a tool is no small undertaking, at least if it is were to be done right.

After the 0.7.0 code gets released, I am considering beginning coding work on a Falagard skin editing tool - except it would be as a side project, and I would be charging a very modest fee. Discussion of generating income from projects - aside from donations - is forbidden for sourceforge hosted projects, so I don't want to dwell on that aspect too much, or to make this thread solely about that ("OMG! CE is charging money!"), but I do want to get some opinions, given that hypothetical situation.

So, would people be willing to pay a modest fee for a falagard skin editor if such a thing was available? And what types of feature do you consider essential in such a tool?

Thanks for any opinions

CE.

[maori]

heya

would this make the creating and editing of the look N feel and scheme files easier ?
if so where do i (aint got much "single dad") send the check

as a n00b myself one thing i find confussing was adding new widgets like my last one where i needed a vert progress bar

[CrazyEddie]

would this make the creating and editing of the look N feel and scheme files easier ?

Yeah, this is the idea. While the details still need to be worked out, the basic operation could be as simple as picking images and clicking / dragging to set various regions. There would exist a system where for regular UI elements (standard base class type + window renderer type) we would be able to guide the user somewhat to ensure any and all required elements have been created.

if so where do i (aint got much "single dad") send the check

While specifics are unknown (since I have not started yet, just mulling over some ideas), I would expect this to be available for say $30 USD (that's around 20 quid to you and me ) - maybe less, highly unlikely to be more.

Thanks for the +1 vote for this

CE.

[maori]

that sounds great :)

if you need a beta tester you know where to find me :)

[Jamarr]

open-source lib with paid tools - you're good.

Actually I think this would be a great addition. I'm still using the WindowsLook.looknfeel because I cannot get any graphics people to even look at text/xml files...and $30 is nothing compared to the time/$$$ it would save.

On a semi-related note, I just happen to be looking through some older threads and came across this topic and thought...wouldn't it be nice if there where a single tool where you could edit layouts, imagesets (with added minor graphics editing like color+brush), and looknfeel files all from the same application - you'd get immediate feedback to all changes and wouldn't need to have 3 different apps open to do design work. And graphics people could do all of the work!

[CrazyEddie]

I'm starting to put together some more concrete ideas, once 0.7.0 is finally out I think work on the skin editor will start more seriously. Once I get to a point of needing some additional testing, I'll likely be contacting some people

open-source lib with paid tools - you're good.

hehe Back when the project was started, if I knew what I know now, I might have taken this approach of free lib but paid tools from the outset - but it was never my intention for CEGUI to become what it has.

With reference to the topic linked, it appears he did some good work there with the dual output and what have you - it seems this work was done during a time when I was 'off' the project, and I'm not 100% sure if I'd seen all of that before or not. I've grabbed a copy of his sources (luckily, still up ) so will take a look at that and perhaps, finally, update the imageset editor. To get back to topic a bit more, there is mention in that topic of the 'unified CEGUI tools framework' - this was an idea for a 'container' app where the actual tools (layout editor, imageset editor, and skin editor) would effectively be plug-ins and so we would have a single tool for editing all CEGUI data - basically what you suggested . While this still represents an ideal scenario I doubt that it's going to be realised - this is due mainly to manpower issues, but also conflicts of interest between the existing free tools and possible paid tools (we can't just switch the existing editors to closed source paid versions), although in that regard we could just make the skin editor plugin module paid and the other modules and container free - so it's possible, but it adds lots of work to the 'free' side of the tools, which - in all honesty - I don't want to be doing

CE.

[CrazyEddie]

Come on the rest of you people out there, you need to add your voice to this thread in order that anything is going to happen. Or do I assume that aside from maori and Jamarr nobody is the slightest bit interested in a skin editor, and that you would prefer to continue editing the 3000 line XML files by hand? You can't complain later if you do not give your opinion when invited to do so

CE

[gring]

A skin editor would really address one of the biggest gaps with CEGUI, the lack of good skins. The threshold to make the xml files today is more like trying to climb kilimanjaro than a walk in the park. This has certainly been an issue where many hasn't been able to see how good CEGUI is, cause of the lack of skins and the problems involved doing one properly.
A new tool to help develop good skins would for sure benefit CEGUI alot. I fully support the issue to charge a reasonable amount for tools that streamlines the production of software.

/Gring

[CrazyEddie]

Thanks for the input. As far as the issue of creating the skin XML by hand, when I first added the skinning system in 2005(?), I genuinely had the impression that the skin XML would be fairly easy to grasp! Obviously now I clearly see this is not the case, because I sometimes look at the Taharez and WindowsLook XML files and am shocked and amazed; shocked that I thought creating those would be easy for people, and amazed that me and Lindquist actually created these 3000+ line xml monsters by hand, from scratch

I totally agree that a lack of skins has almost certainly hurt the project, though with the above in mind, the lack of skins is totally understandable. Kudos to those guys who have actually made the handful of 3rd party skins that do exist.

CE.

[Jamarr]

I have no doubts that providing a tool that designers can use to visually create beautiful skins would bring with it a larger, likely more active, user base. The easier it is for users to contribute to a project the more users will want to contribute.

[CrazyEddie]

I do hope so. While there's no doubt that I'm an egotistical hard-arse as far as contributions are concerned (at least as far as the code goes, because I'll not sacrifice the integrity of the code and overall design just to satisfy a handful of MoFos on here ), it's absolutely something that I'd like to see more of.

Probably the thing that does surprise me is the general reluctance of people to post help for others; there have been occasions where posts with really easy solutions go unanswered, while other users - who I know could easily answer or give some input to those topics, continually post their own questions without bothering to try and help anyone else. Which leaves a couple or three people answering all the posts, all the time. It actually quite grates with me sometimes, because the "good-will account" (if you will) is pretty much empty.

Btw, if anyone is considering contributing code for CEGUI, please do - just make sure it's very, very good (and for God's sake maintain the same style as what's used in the existing files - since not doing that is - frankly - an insult)

CE.

[Jamarr]

Yeah I hear you lol. I think people who receive help, should return /at least/ the equivilent amount of help back to the community - if not more.

[Mikademus]

Hi,

yeah, I too want to create skins for CEGUI (am a graphics designer) but am intimidated by the current XML-only editing bonanza required, so a GUI tool for this is dearly needed!

Speaking of dear, $30 for a hobbyist licence seems a bit steep, though. If you decide to charge, perhaps you should use a guiltware system and charge people by their abilities (f.i. "I am poor, pitful and of few means, buy the tool for 10 zoidbucks", "Buy the tool for 15 clinking coins and get the 'CEGUI Supporter' forum badge", and "I am wealthy and will buy the tool for 20 gurkins and get the 'Beloved of CrazyEddie" badge"). You might also consider charging little for private or hobby use, and much more for corporate use.

Another option, again, it to open source it and invite collective contributions. That way you will get a working tool for less investment, and the tool will attract more people to use CEGUI and a FOSS tool will give you serious goodwill and appreciation.

[CrazyEddie]

Thanks for the 'vote' and opinions, it's appreciated.

I don't necessarily agree that $30 (US) is expensive, although I accept that some people will feel that way. IMO many people spend more than this a week on alcohol and cigarettes - surely that money is better spent on a professionally written skin editor

The ideas as regards to varying prices based upon either financial or organisational status is definitely interesting, although does add complexity to the overall set up and relies upon people to be honest about their standing (I think the majority would be honest, though there are always those who are not).

With regards to open sourcing the tool and getting contributions; we've tried that for six years with CEGUI itself and the level of community engagement has been pretty minimal - I'm not saying this has turned me off FOSS because it hasn't, though I think there needs to be a balance between the free parts of a project and those parts that have potential to generate at least some revenue to support the free bits.

CE.

[Mikademus]

I have been thinking a bit about this topic. I think that making an editor is an absolute must, and I also think that charging for it is a serious mistake. I will make my claims as logically as possible to allow my arguments to be criticised, addressed or substantiated.

Given that

Premises
• Basically, there is very little doubt that CEGUI is the most powerful and useful open GUI solution available for 3D projects today.
• It is also a fact that appearance customisation in CEGUI is technical, difficult and arduous.
• Further, it is obvious that any serious application needs to adjust the skin of its GUI (I wouldn't release a game with a default skin of any package for a number of reasons).

it stands to reason that

Implications
1. any GUI solution will need to offer an easy and accessible skin customisation of some kind for it to be applicable and acceptable.
2. the lack of this is a reason CEGUI isn't more established and prevalent than it is in spite of being well-known and the acknowledged most powerful open GUI alternative.

From the premises, and the implications derived from them, I conclude that:

Conclusions

1. a skin editor is essential for making CEGUI more popular and actually used, but
2. an editor that costs will result in that CEGUI will remain at the same (or perhaps even lower) level of market penetration.